tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post1015546108314004712..comments2024-03-19T01:05:47.533-04:00Comments on The Multiverse According to Ben: Reinforcement Learning: Some Limitations of the ParadigmBenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12743597120529571571noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-72691303568935063112019-07-25T22:16:54.053-04:002019-07-25T22:16:54.053-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tim Tylerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06623536372084468307noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-44139500154545851002018-04-29T16:19:15.128-04:002018-04-29T16:19:15.128-04:00Terimakasih Admin atas informasinya. saya sangat s...Terimakasih Admin atas informasinya. saya sangat senang membacanya karena sangat menarik. baca juga artikel saya salah satunya <a href="http://www.obatbiusimport.com/" rel="nofollow">obat bius</a> merupakan salah satu obat medis yang sudah di kenal sejak lama biasanya para dokter menggunakanya sebagai senjata utama saat operasi agar pasien tidak merasakan sakit apapun juga bisa di gunakan untuk mengatasi orang yang mengalami gangguan jiwa sedang mengamuk agar bisa tenang<br />namun para remaja lebih menyukai berbentuk <a href="http://www.obatbiusimport.com/" rel="nofollow">obat bius cair</a> dengan alasan guna mengatasi ganguan hubungan rumah tangga karena banyak sekali salah satu dari pasangan merasakan kebosanan hubungan intim hal inilah yang menjadikan kurang harmonis.<br />tetapi ada yang salah kaprah untuk membedakanya soal <a href="http://www.obatbiusimport.com/" rel="nofollow">obat tidur</a> dengan sama jenisnya padahal kegunaanya berbeda sebab obat tidur sebagai bahan pokok mengatasi insomnia atau susah tidur dan obat bius untuk membuat orang pingsan.<br />tentunya obat tidur juga banyak jenisnya seperti <a href="http://www.obatbiusimport.com/" rel="nofollow">obat tidur cair</a> cara menggunakanya di campurkan ke minuman cukup di kasihb 5 tetes saja ke dalam satu botol minuman tinggal di aduk merata.<br /><br />artikel yang saya baca ini sangan membantu buat saya juga menambah masukan.<br />saya ingin sedikit berbagi pengalaman soal <a href="https://obatbiusresmi.com/" rel="nofollow">obat bius</a> yang sangat populer di tahun ini karena banyak sekali keluhan dari konsumen masalah kurang harmonis dalam hubungan pasutri. bagi anda yang mengalami hal tersebut janganlah berkecil hati karena kami akan mengatasinya dengan <a href="https://obatbiusresmi.com/" rel="nofollow">jual obat bius</a> asli germany yang mempu membuat wanita pingsan sekaligus merangsang akan naik gairah seksual yang dahsyat.<br /><br />banyak ada yang salah menilai obat bius itu sama khasiatnya dengan <a href="https://obatbiusresmi.com/" rel="nofollow">obat tidur</a> akan tetapi sangatlah berbeda fungsinya sudah jelas untuk mengatasi insomnia atau susah tidur karena memang penyakit tersebut sangatlah tidak enak bahkan bisa menyebabkan mata menjadi buram juga berkurangnya nafsu makan.<br /><br />tetapi bagi anda yang mengalami ganguan susah tidur tidak usah kawatir sebab kami <a href="https://obatbiusresmi.com/" rel="nofollow">jual obat tidur</a> yang sudah puluhan tahun menjadi kepercayaan bagi konsumen dengan layanan ramah juga sopan karena kepuasan konsumen adalah pilihan utama. <a href="https://obatbiusresmi.com/" rel="nofollow">obat tidur cair</a> salah satunya yang mempunyai kandungan khusus mampu membuat orang cepat tertidur hingga lelap sekaligus bisa menyembuhkan penyakit insomnia.<br /><br />toko cahayahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04199497444249624174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-38716481210787782452018-04-13T16:30:43.769-04:002018-04-13T16:30:43.769-04:00Thank you for the information. 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Thanks for the comment, I found your pre...Hi Curt,<br /><br />Thanks for the comment, I found your previous one, as well. <br /><br />I do agree on what you state about the low-level, this is where my vision went as early as 6-7 years ago, still in my teenage years, while shaping my... Theory of mind and Universe. It has something in common with reinforcement learning/utilitarism and the theory of Jeff Hawkins from "On Intelligence" - prediction as the essence of intelligence, and architecture based on hierarchy where higher levels are built with elements from the lower level, and the lowest level is based on the primary sensory inputs. (My story in AI presented in 3 min: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfNRDGBLo5o)<br /><br />This sturm-und-graz article against the trend in NLP and pro- reinforcement learning/bottom-up approaches to AI is also related to that low-level discussion.<br /><br />What's wrong with Natural Language Processing? Part 2. Static, Specific, High-level, Not-evolving...<br /> <br />http://artificial-mind.blogspot.com/2009/03/whats-wrong-with-natural-language.html<br /><br />Generally, bottom-up approach and standing on the low level allows scaling and evolution of the system.<br /><br />In reality, actually no high level, there is one level - the lowest one, physical world/laws/states whatever they are, they control everything.<br /><br />A universe that is capable to model itself in the tinies details, doesn't need to have "conceptions" of atoms, molecules, cells etc. it just simulates the lowest level and the rest is an emergent by-effects of it.<br /> <br />E.g. when a man moves his finger, there are many causes this to happen in the mere existence of the body and the Universe.<br /><br />This goes also for computers - there could be only one level - machine language, memory, interrupts... Everything at a higher level can be modeled by the lower level at the highest possible detail of the higher level, while the reverse is not possible.<br /><br />In mind, natural-language-oriented models should be based on lower level ones, developed earlier and based on primary senses, instincts and reflexes. Everything starts from the lowest level, and high level without low level makes no sense. In NLP, this is about the statistical text crunchers, which do useful work, but have no idea what the text stands for - the reader understands the result, e.g. does something that passes through a lower level.Todor "Tosh" Arnaudov - Twenkidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04922120675725429792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-18171595456767543742009-12-18T12:36:18.372-05:002009-12-18T12:36:18.372-05:00Todor, you are right about reward being looked at ...Todor, you are right about reward being looked at in too narrow a sense. If you study behaviorism, and the AI field of reinforcement learning, you learn that the concept of being reward driven is far more complex than the simple folk psychological view someone like Richard is trying to deny. Very few people actually study these concepts long enough to understand them correctly. Anyone that suggests a reward driven system can't explain human behavior, hasn't studied the work enough.<br /><br />Reinforcement learning machines work by developing secondary reinforcers - by learning to estimate expected future real rewards. These learned estimations, are the major forces shaping our behaviors - not the prime rewards they were derived from. These secondary reinforcers are constantly changing, both from effects by the prime rewards, and by effecting each other.<br /><br />All of that however happens at a level so low in humans, that we have no sense at all it's happening. You can only uncover the true actions of those forces though carefully controlled experiments that monitor how our behavior _changes_ slowly over time. Because that's all those forces do - they shape our behavior slowly over time.<br /><br />What you and Richard and some of what Ben was talking about, however is something at a completely different level. You are talking about our language-behaviors. Humans make heavy use of langauge as a tool for self control. We talk, and then we act based on what we said to ourselves. But how did you learn to talk? What controls the things we say to ourselves? What makes Richard call people fuck-wits? These are just behaviors conditioned in us by a highly complex set of learned secondary reinforcers. Our life time of experience has caused our complex language behaviors, to be shaped by our complex secondary reinforcers.<br /><br />We are conditioned to rationalize our actions using langauge. But what we say, seldom has much to do with the truth about the true cause of our actions. We are trained to make up good sounding nonsense. We all do it.<br /><br />Someone like Richard, is becoming frustrated, because his made up nonsense, isn't compatible with the made up nonsense of others, and that bothers him. He's invested far too much, in the true value of his made up nonsense - his self rationalizations - his "values". None of that high level rationalization-talk has much of anything to do with how the brain actually works - and in what the true cause of our actions are.<br /><br />When you talk about re-wiring our goals, you are (as far as I can guess) talking about stuff happening at this same high level of self rationalization using langauge. When I say to myself, "I'm not going to eat any more donuts because it will make me fat", I have changed my future behavior by talking to myself. But that lagniappe I produced is NOT THE cause of my non eating action the next day. The cause of the action was the life time of conditioning that shaped that talking behavior in me, and which shaped my ability to react to what I say to myself. This high level talking we do, is just the tip of the behavior iceberg that emerges from the lower level systems that are the real cause of our behavior.<br /><br />The more time you spend analyzing what people _say_ they do, or _say_ is the cause of their behavior, the more confused you become. If you want to understand the real cause of human behavior (which is required if you actually want to solve AI), study behaviorism, and study the AI field of reinforcement learning. The more you study, the more realize that all this high level talk is just nonsense behavior that our society conditioned us to produce. Separating the truth, from the nonsense, is hard work, but required if you want to solve AI. And the bottom line - reward based behavior is far more complex than most appreciate - and way beyond what someone like Richard is likely to ever understand.Curt Welchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10935117732089312481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-68286360585296368282009-12-18T11:18:17.497-05:002009-12-18T11:18:17.497-05:00Sorry dude, I read it, but I didn't find the p...Sorry dude, I read it, but I didn't find the point, except that you call everybody idiots and that you speak about your depression which may explain it.<br /><br />You're appreciating something - so what? How do you model the path you reach up to appreciating fractals. RL, Goal-driven etc. is about modeling behaviour, not just about stating facts.Todor "Tosh" Arnaudov - Twenkidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04922120675725429792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-33453309610709678882009-12-18T06:04:57.757-05:002009-12-18T06:04:57.757-05:00Todor,
> A reward is what the one that receive...Todor,<br /><br />> A reward is what the one that receives it considers "a reward", <br /><br />I don't consider anything I do to be reward-driven.<br /><br />Moreover, your trying to redefine altruism as egotism is the typical stuff of those who can't even conceive of anything but their own egotism to exist.Richard Kuliszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05450367878517586463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-45855100498741731832009-12-16T15:44:53.711-05:002009-12-16T15:44:53.711-05:00Perhaps I'm not using percisely the senses.
I...Perhaps I'm not using percisely the senses.<br /><br />I mean, e.g. if you're 18, you may think that making random sex right now is "cool". When you are 28, you may think it's not, even though making sex still would bring you immediate pleasere - however, higher level controls would inhibit your urge for lower level rewards and generally shift your behaviour to higher level rewards.<br /><br />My point is that reward is not only dopamine, endorfin or so. Higher the ingelligence, higher the abstraction of reward coul be. A reward is what the one that receives it considers "a reward", and even the altruism could also be taken as egoism, because one is doing what is "good" regarding its own values and desires, sometimes it's against what the other wants.<br /><br />E.g. when a lover dies to save his beloved one. Is it really an altruism? How she will feel when seeing him dying, wouldn't she prefer them to die together?<br /><br />And if you're doing something "against yourself" isn't it to prevent something that you consider worst. When you feel moral responsibility of doing something, fear of not fulfilling your duty might be bigger than the fear of pain.Todor "Tosh" Arnaudov - Twenkidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04922120675725429792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-73653865750928849092009-12-16T06:18:30.084-05:002009-12-16T06:18:30.084-05:00http://richardkulisz.blogspot.com/2009/12/reward-s...http://richardkulisz.blogspot.com/2009/12/reward-seeking-vs-goal-seeking.html<br /><br />Values only change in response to other values, not rewards. Core values never change, they only get refined.<br /><br />A person whose core values have been changed has been brainwashed to become an entirely different person.Richard Kuliszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05450367878517586463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-79220423380697915602009-12-16T03:54:40.806-05:002009-12-16T03:54:40.806-05:00You're right that if the system can alter or &...You're right that if the system can alter or "re-wire" its circuitry that computes "reward", this confuses the mechanism, but I believe humans actually can do that - person's values are changing during life time, and even during the decision processes themselves.<br /><br />I think "reward" is looked in a too narrow sense, because mind is not as solid and... single-minded to have one-single type of rewards. You've spoken about the "sub-selves" in the blog, I would say "virtual control units" that take control over the body.<br /><br />Body is what makes mind to look uniform, even if it's not, mind can want 1000 things, body can't do them in the same time.<br /><br />I've speculated on that in my old article, but it's in Bulgarian, I have to translate it in English (eventyally citing it).<br /><br /><br />E.g. let's consider a boy which is hesitating whether to eat up a chocolate or not. This could be an immediate high taste reward in a near future and if the boy plans only for 1 minute ahead, this is a right decision.<br /><br />However, what if the boy widen the period of prediction to one year? He remembers his pain while visiting his dentists and reminds his notes, that eating too much chocolate causes bad teeths and pain. So if he plans for one year and reminds this, and decides that this will happen (it couldn't be sure), then the highly rewarding decision would stop being rewarding in the equation and the boy wouldn't take it.<br /><br />Overall, the maximum reward depends on the set of predicting sub-units, scenarios, values taken into account in the very moment of decision, and the period of time they are predicting ahead.<br /><br />They are changing, depending on attention, context, mood or even chance - there are so many scenarios that the brain can think of.<br /><br />The set of predicting sub-units may change, they can switch at different levels of hierarchies and predicted periods, while the behaviour could still keep being reward-driven. It could be reward-driven for the particular "reward-driven virtual unit that took control over the body in this very moment". <br /><br />This implies the mind is not uniform and there is not single "greatest reward".Todor "Tosh" Arnaudov - Twenkidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04922120675725429792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-57823077940989353042009-06-02T02:37:00.462-04:002009-06-02T02:37:00.462-04:00I tried to write a reply, but as is typical of me,...I tried to write a reply, but as is typical of me, it was way too long, so I created by own blog and posted the reply there. It can be found <A HREF="http://curtwelch.blogspot.com/2009/06/response-to-ben-goertzels-blog-post-on.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>.Curt Welchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10935117732089312481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-30205906746421119982009-05-27T16:18:30.133-04:002009-05-27T16:18:30.133-04:00The thought experiment of pushing the max-orgasm-a...The thought experiment of pushing the max-orgasm-apocalypse button is erroneous on its face. The positive psychology movement has shown that pleasure is just one of several eudaemonic objectives humans strive for. An indefinite ultimate orgasmic sensation does not necessarily trump a life with social interaction and meaningful work. <br /><br />If your AGI was primitive in the sense that it is driven by purely sensation rewards, then its architecture has not been designed well. Maybe that is what you are getting at with goal-motivated behavior vs. reward-seeking. It seems to me that reward-seeking was evolution's way of creating a goal-driven system like humans, and we should be able to design an AGI without going through that route.haignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-80746908546029299582009-05-26T21:28:28.055-04:002009-05-26T21:28:28.055-04:00@Thom -
My wife is a dog trainer who uses positi...@Thom - <br /><br />My wife is a dog trainer who uses positive training methods (reward based). I've seen her train very complex behaviors. It's actually beside the point as to whether the dog "understands what the goal of the exercise is", because reward-based training is a behaviorist paradigm. Cognition is only relevant to the extent that the dog can pair the consequence (reward or punishment) to the behavior that provoked it. Dogs are so trainable because they excel at this.<br /><br />For dogs (all animals, really) it is a far superior training methodology to the kind of anthropomorphism you are suggesting. Dogs cannot be expected to understand human motivations, but they very clearly do understand food, play, and other rewards, as consequences to behavior.Terrenhttp://www.selfsimulation.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-19672691661581958202009-05-25T09:06:59.642-04:002009-05-25T09:06:59.642-04:00I posed the A versus B choice in the above blog po...I posed the A versus B choice in the above blog post to my 3 kids yesterday....<br /><br />"If you were offered the chance for infinite bliss lasting infinitely long, at cost of immediately having everyone else on Earth die, would you take it?"<br /><br />Zebulon, my almost-16-year-old son, reacted instantly: "Yes."<br /><br />Scheherazade, my 12-year-old daughter, reacted instantly: "No"<br /><br />Zarathustra, my 19-year-old son, thought about it a bit, then said something like (I don't recall his precise wording): "It seems the total amount of pleasure I would obtain would be more than the total amount of pain caused by the death of everyone else. So in the interest of maximizing total goodness I guess I'd have to take the opportunity."<br /><br />Interesting technique for probing personality differences. I'll be curious to ask Zeb the same question 10 or 20 years from now.Ben Goertzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01289041122724284772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-89775542429240348652009-05-25T09:03:43.675-04:002009-05-25T09:03:43.675-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ben Goertzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01289041122724284772noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-75034008428152850342009-05-25T02:01:33.639-04:002009-05-25T02:01:33.639-04:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Richard Kuliszhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05450367878517586463noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-77165041392143781212009-05-24T07:19:54.452-04:002009-05-24T07:19:54.452-04:00Abram Demski: yes.Abram Demski: yes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-69813003849248125192009-05-23T18:29:27.139-04:002009-05-23T18:29:27.139-04:00Anonymous,
You assert that if I really do accept ...Anonymous,<br /><br />You assert that if I really do accept the fact that the button leads to maximal pleasure, then I would be irrational not to press it, even if it (say) also led to the destruction of everything in the universe except me?abramdemskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16505965907380398166noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11168555.post-24542474811396474632009-05-23T16:47:18.121-04:002009-05-23T16:47:18.121-04:00Anonymous: Given a system that cannot reprogram it...Anonymous: Given a system that cannot reprogram itself, and has limited control over its environment, then I agree you can emulate goal functions pretty flexibly via giving the system well-designed rewards. <br /><br />(Although, it may take a long time for the system to induce a particular goal function from a series of rewards ... and in real life, this system could get overtaken by some other system that had its goals inculcated in it via some faster mechanism, rather than needing to wait to induce it from a pattern of rewards.)<br /><br />However, if you have a system that can either<br /><br />a) reprogram itself so as to flexibly cause internal events to give it rewards; or <br /><br />b) manipulate the environment powerfully (e.g. holding a gun to someone's head and forcing them to press the reward button)<br /><br />then reinforcement learning leads to bigger problems. <br /><br />Because then it, not you the external teacher, controls when it gets rewards. So then, if its goal is to maximize expected future reward, it will be motivated to modify itself and its environment in ways that are unlikely to be beneficial in terms of other goals besides maximizing its expected future reward....<br /><br />-- Ben GBen Goertzelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01289041122724284772noreply@blogger.com